This is a two part assignment 1) write your own response answering the question above and 2) respond to one of your peers. Your responses should be written in clear, concise paragraphs that are purposeful to understanding the complexities of the texts.
One of the concluding images of The Great Gatsby is
Nick’s description of “the old island here that flowered once for Dutch
sailors’ eyes—a fresh, green breast of the new world.” (180). This imagery reflects the predominance
in the novel of fantasies insistently associated with men. This was also presented in the post show discussion of Moby Dick. Be sure to follow conventional rules for grammar and mechanics.
What is the place for the novel’s female characters—Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan—in such fantasies? Are the dreams of the women in the novel consistent with those fantasies, or do these dreams encounter any points of resistance? How does this relate to the role of women as presented in the play?
What is the place for the novel’s female characters—Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan—in such fantasies? Are the dreams of the women in the novel consistent with those fantasies, or do these dreams encounter any points of resistance? How does this relate to the role of women as presented in the play?
The men in The Great Gatsby have fantasies about material wealth more than fantasies about falling in love. The men try to uphold their masculinity by using the woman. Tom does this when he creates the double standard of him being able to cheat on Daisy with Myrtle. But Daisy can not be with Gatsby alone because he feels humiliated and his masculinity ruined. The men picture themselves as rulers and the women are there to be seen as weak people that are supposed to depend on them.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Bethany that the men do try to uphold their masculinity, however, I believe it is through power which they either have or do not have. Tom, having come from old money, can do as he pleases and Gatsby having been a "neighbor" for some time has never bothered him until the question of his masculinity was brought up (through his wife, Daisy). It seems more likely that losing control of anything would hurt his ego more than losing money.
DeleteHow does this answer the question about the female character's dreams? Its obvious of how the men you mentioned benefit from women, but where are women in their dreams? Be specific, use concrete examples from the characters' relationships or lack there of.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby, Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan have the same materialistic wealth and status dreams as the men in the novel; however it is hidden by love and marriage. In Chapter 7, Gatsby tells Nick about when he first met Daisy. Their love was cut short because poor Gatsby had to go off to war. Daisy grew tired of waiting and her life became unstable. Daisy felt that , “She wanted her life shaped now, immediately—and the decision must be made by some force—of love, of money, of unquestionable practicality—that was close at hand” (Fitzgerald 151). Her life finally became stable because of rich Tom Buchanan. Daisy left Gatsby for Tom throughout the entire story, this leads to Gatsby’s dream dying because he himself is dead because of Daisy. Myrtle as well wants to gain power and wealth, so she becomes Tom’s mistress for a way out of poverty. However this ends in her death and Tom’s world begins to fall apart. Jordan, Nick’s girlfriend who always attended Gatsby’s parties, only cares about wealth. Nick realizes that like Daisy, Jordan just wants status at any cost. The women in this novel control the men and point them towards their inevitable doom, just as the female fates did in the Moby Dick play. The fates led Captain Ahab and his crew to their death because they chased their fantasy of killing Moby Dick for too long.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Janaei as the women in The Great Gatsby are in constant search of materialistic wealth. This is because they are looking for some sort of stability in their lives and they believe money promises this. The fantasies of the men, in some terms, fall parallel to the dreams of the women. Women in the novel are mere accessories to the men and they make little attempt to be more than that. The fantasies of the men have a commonality; men want their wives to fall submissive to their decisions as Tom and Mr. Wilson have shown with their own wives. The women's acceptance of their place in marriage shows their willingness to accept the fantasies of their husbands as well. In contrast, in the play, women hold a drastically influential part in the lives of all the men. The women (as they played the whale as well as "Fate") are the ones who give purpose to the men's journey. The Captain is in an obsessive search for a whale, but yet again, he ends the journey falling powerless to this unstoppable beast. The whale (the women) has the upper hand; it is in control (at least more so than the men are) which serves to be very different to the lives of the women in The Great Gatsby.
DeleteI agree with you 100% Janaei. Moby Dick took a central role in the crew's lives and the Fates did in fact lead them to the crew sans Ishmael's own death as did Daisy Buchannan in the Great Gatsby to Gatsby
DeleteI strongly agree with the fact that women control men. I really like your analysis about how the women want something like status as you said
DeleteI agree with you Janaei. Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan care about everything the East Egg represents materialism, wealth, corruption, and superficialness. The women use the men for self gain. Gatsby and the crew die as a result of being blinded by the women. Gatsby does not want to realize that Daisy is manipulating him to empower herself.
DeleteI agree with Sosna and Janaei on the concept of women's dreams being parallel to that of men's. Both men and women in this novel is attempting to achieve a certain kind of happiness but pursues it through materialistic wealth. Thus, even though their dreams are pure, the means they use to achieve their dreams corrupts them. Men are able to more openly rule as the dominant power while women have to accept their roles as the inferior ones. As Daisy mentions about her daughter, "I’m glad it’s a girl. And I hope she’ll be a fool – that’s the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool” (Fitzgerald 17), she shows awareness of the boundaries set on women. However, Daisy being aware of her own feminity was what allowed her to manipulate the men into getting what they want. Daisy’s fascination with Gatsby came with his massive wealth but later decided to stay by Tom because he’s able to provide Daisy with the security she needs. Her inability to chose Gatsby over wealth was what ultimately killed his dream and doomed him. Similarly, the women who played the fates in Moby Dick manipulated the men and lured them to Moby Dick. Even though it was men who dominated the play, the women were able to make their appearance as the driving force leading towards the men’s death.
DeleteCarolina Vallin
DeleteI can agree with saying that Daisy and Myrtke used men to gain wealth and security, but the same can not be said about Jordan. Nick does not have the capability to provide Jordan with these artificial elements, a fact that Jordan is aware of, therefore she would not waste her time on Nick if that was what she sought.
In the Great Gatsby, a patriarchal society is reflected through the use of language that employs masculine personification and symbolism; "the old island here that flowered once for Dutch sailors’ eyes—a fresh, green breast of the new world” (Fitzgerald 180). However, these dreams of men are shaped by the women; Gatsby's decisions and actions are constantly being influenced by his love for Daisy. The same can be said for Nick's obsession with Jordan and Tom's desire for Myrtle. Although it is the fantasies of the men that are being told, the women serve as the underlying force behind the novel. Similarly, in the production of Moby Dick, the fates determine the destiny of the sailors. Despite the male dominance present in both the novel and the play, both have a feminine influence that is an essential part of the formulation of the men's "fantasies." Therefore, the dreams of women drive the dreams of men, suggesting that the females hold a sense of power greater than the fantasies of men.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your view Molly, the women act as a guide to the men's lives. Even though the women don't seem to play a big role in society, they end up controlling the men. Both the fates and the women in the great Gatsby use lies, deceit , and sexuality to get what they want , and this in the end determines their destiny just as you said.
DeleteI agree with what both of you guys are saying as though traditional roles may make it seem like men have more power over women, both of these pieces act as a show of how women held influence over the men. The examples that Janaei brought up of the "tools" that the women used such as lies and sexuality were prevalent in Moby Dick with the female Fates tempting/luring the men to their deaths as well as in The Great Gatsby with Daisy igniting and continuing the feud of masculinity between Tom and Gatsby.
DeleteMolly, I agree with you that the women are the underlying force in the mens dreams. I think the women's dreams do greatly influence that of the men's and if the women hadn't been consistent with the fantasies of the men the men's main objective would have changed too. All of the men in the novel were being influenced by one of the women just like in the play the sailors were being influenced by the fates who determined their destiny.
DeleteI agree with your idea that womens dreams shape the ones of men and i like how you use the example of tom and myrtle, nick and jordan, and Gatsby and daisy thus showing how women are the uderlying meaning behind men's dreams like you said. Also liked how you connected the idea back to Moby Dick.
DeleteI agree you Janaei. The fates and the woman in The Great Gatsby relate when it comes to them directly changing the men and their dreams. The fates represented death, love, seduction just as the woman in the book. Daisy represents love as Gatsby loves her and dreams to be with her. Myrtle represents death when she dies and takes Tom's dreams with her. The men's dreams are always changed by these powerful woman roles.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald women like Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan make men feel complete by giving them their attention and love. After Gatsby had left for the war she married Tom, then after Tom finds out that they have had an affair after he returned she knows that she will not return to the affair. The women in this book are very controlling and manipulative in a subtle way. Daisy knows about Toms affair but she does not stop him and when Tom finds out about her affair he does not leave her. This shows how even though she cheated on Tom she can still get what she wants which is money and wealth. The money and wealth is also the reason why she married Tom, because he was rich and powerful. Just as men try to have power as in money and social status women try to have power over men.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Juan. The men in The Great Gatsby believe they are the ones controlling the women, when the women are actually controlling them. All of the characters' actions are for one central reason: to gain wealth and status. Tom needs Daisy to be the perfect man, and Daisy needs Tom to be a rich model wife.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald and the production of Moby Dick at Northwestern, women are seen as powerful manipulators that use and change men throughout their plots, usually for selfish gain. However, for each women in The Great Gatsby, the amount of resistance that they receive differs by person and specifically their place in society. Daisy, an old money holder who is unable to love, constantly uses her sexuality and attention to put Tom and Gatsby at odds with eachother. As shown in the scene with the cars before Myrtle's death, Tom sees Daisy's giving of attention to Gatsby as an attack on his masculinity, while Gatsby sees it as love and something that a women should be doing for him. Going back to Myrtle, she is on the opposite end of the spectrum as, since she is from the poorer side of the city, she is treated badly by Tom (He breaks her nose in NY) but even still, continues to hold sway over Tom and how close he can bring her to her dreams of being rich as shown by Tom's reaction when finding out "...Myrtle had some sort of life apart from him...and it made him physically sick" (Fitzgerald 124). In the production of Moby Dick, the female Fates hold complete and utter control over the men through use of their sexuality which allows them to use deceit and trickery. Already blinded by their dream of killing Moby Dick, the Fates have no problem attaining their goals of showing the men their choice of such blind fury towards an object can only end in their own loss. Therefore, the women in both pieces are only allowed as much influence as how much "pull" is given to them by the men in order to attain their dreams.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your belief that women have influence on men. However, I do not think that Daisy aims to put Tom and Gatsby against each other. She she does so while she is trying to find true love. I agree that she cannot love, but she still attempts to do so. Her dream of love creates friction with the men, and I think that is what causes them to go against each other.
DeleteI think you connected the two stories really well and I agree with you. Your last sentence was a very good way to end your response by the way.
DeleteIn the Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald the woman in the novel aka Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan's place in this novel is of power to the men in the novel. Their dreams are parallel to the men's because they also want power. Daisy with wealth, Myrtle with wanting to get out of the lower class situation she lives in and Jordan with being a golfer and going as far to cheat to gain power in the sport. The of dreams of all three of these woman are met with resistance but in Myrtle's dream, her dream is never realized as she was struck and killed by a car Daisy was driving and she gave "up the tremendous vitality (which) she had stored so long" (Fitzgerald 137). Daisy breaks Gatsby's dream of being with her as she goes back to Tom because he has more power and wealth than Gatsby and Nick ends up breaking up with Jordan with Jordan saying some rude remarks to Nick. The Fates in the play version of Herman Melville's Moby Dick relate to the woman in the novel as they each have duel personalities. They can seduce or scare. The Fates seduced the crew members sans Ishmael into drowning in the water by luring them in like sirens. The Fates also scared the crew members because they played the whales who were the main target of the crew on the Pequad.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of your statement except for saying Myrtle never realized her dream of escaping the lower class. Myrtle has always recognized how the wealthy act and dress, which leads her to emulate them, specifically in New York. Myrtle never explicitly stated that she wanted to get out of the lower class, but she implies it. She sees Tom as a way to escape and that's why she uses him, to live the life she desires. When she runs to the car, she knows that either Tom will take her or she would die. I think she was ok with death if she could not live the lifestyle she always thrived for. Her running to the car is the reason why I think Myrtle knew her dream.
DeleteI agree with Madison. Myrtle could have chosen to have an affair with someone from her social class but she chooses Tom for a reason.
DeleteWomen are the driving force for men. They are able to manipulate their thinking and drive them to the point of obsession. F. Scott Fitzgerald uses phrases that present men as powerful yet they are controlled by the women, who essentially, dictate the men's decisions. All of Gatsby's choices are directly influenced by Daisy in hopes to gain her love. Myrtle is able to control Tom through wanting to be part of the higher class. Because Tom is the upper class, he has the ability to make that happen, giving him control. Myrtle, however, in the one in control and that is shown after her death when Tom realizes his life is falling apart, making him try to regain power by emasculating Gatsby. Tom's decision is influenced by the obsession of him having complete power, which is related to Myrtle. Nick is obsessed with the glamour of Jordan, which influences him to drink and do things he would not normally do. The women's dreams are presented as simplistic and only desire is wealth, which differs from the men in a sense that women have the dreams for themselves. Women are what influence the men and make their decisions although their story is not told; the men's story is told to show how patriarchal society is dictated by women. The production of Moby Dick also portrays the fates as the influential factors in one of the most masculine places. The fates, like the women, seduce the men into death. Daisy basically killed Gatsby when she ran over Myrtle; while when Myrtle died she took away Tom's ability to function in the lower class. Similar to the women, the fates are 'stage mangers' who control the mens actions; such as where they are and what they do. Women create the fantasies for men based off their dreams, making women in both the book and play more dominant then men and having an underlying matriarchal society.
ReplyDeleteYes, all the women want is to be in a higher class or keep their power in the class their in. They are to manipulative! It seems as if all women in post war act as forces against men but then again women still do.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby, men fantasize about achieving perfection, but are reminded by women that their dream is impossible. In the novel, Tom Buchanan and Nick both embody the chase of perfection. Tom has an abundance of material wealth and tries to impose absolute power over his wife, Daisy, and over his mistress, Myrtle. However, Daisy defies his authority when she tells Gatsby “‘I love you now-isn’t that enough? I can’t help what’s past’” (Fitzgerald 132), which shows that Tom’s goal of perfection is not achieved because he has a wife that discredits his manhood. Myrtle ruins Tom’s euphoric world by reminding him of his treacherous infidelity. Myrtle says “‘Daisy! Daisy! Daisy! I’ll say it whenever I want to!’” (Fitzgerald 37), which not only rejects Tom’s control over her, but also making Tom feel guilty about his affair, causing him break her nose. Nick also subtly chases perfection, by trying to avoid any problems. Jordan Baker reminds Nick that life cannot be trouble-free, when she says “‘You said a bad driver was only safe until she met another bad driver? Well, I met another bad driver, didn’t I?...I thought you were rather an honest, straightforward person’” (Fitzgerald 177). Jordan exposes Nick’s aloofness towards certain people, and thus breaks his worry-free existence. Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan Baker, all dream of some sort of internal fulfillment; Daisy dreams of finding true love, Myrtle of a higher social rank, and Jordan of freedom from men. Their fantasies coincide with the men’s dreams, because they both aim to improve themselves. The women in The Great Gatsby and the women fates in the Moby Dick play relate to each other, because they both hinder the men from achieving their goals. The women in the novel hinder the men from achieving perfection, and the fate women in the play stop Ahab and the other men from killing the killer white whale.
ReplyDeleteI agree- I think that although it is the men's dreams that are most frequently discussed, it is the dreams of the women that have a stronger impact on the direction of the story. Daisy's quest for love, Myrtle's pursuit of status, and Jordan's search for freedom are indirectly referenced as driving forces in the novel, and thus each women has a tremendous effect on the man most perceptible to their influence. When you look at it this way, the dreams of the men seem shallow; it is their inevitable susceptibility to the women that allow them to create these "fantasies" in their mind - fantasies that reflect their underlying motive to preserve their masculinity and achieve "perfection."
DeleteDarcey Gans
DeleteMr.Saldivar
American Literature, Per. 8
5/5/14
Nicolas: you did a great job of structuring the piece, I can definitely see your context, analysis, (although I would push this to be a little stronger), and evaluation. I disagree thought that dreams of the women in The Great Gatsby coincide with that of the men. Women have no voice in the patriarchy of America, and when they attempt to speak it almost always disregarded. The ambitions of female characters are ignored by men so that they exist within the goals of man, allowing women to be used as tools to achieve men's dreams. The individuals in the Great Gatsby are self centered, but create the illusion of empathy and compassion, as the men in the Great Gatsby do for the women they desire. Daisy wants "her life shaped...and...made by some force" (Fitzgerald 151), an example of her life has been shaped by the pressure of a patriarchal society, that she feels she must waist for an outside force to create an identity and a future for her. Daisy does fulfill this desire in her submissive behavior with men, but by allowing herself to be treated as inferior, Daisy allows men to treat as an object, and thereby use her as a tool. Gatsby does just this in his relationship with Daisy, because although he says he loves her, he also tell her that, "her voice is full of money" (Fitzgerald 120). By doing Gatsby demonstrates his real motives for his relationship with Daisy are not to take her away from a womanizing husband, or even for love, but for the success, wealth, and power she symbolizes to him. The relationship between Gatsby and Daisy is representative of how women in the 1920s America allowed themselves to accomadate, men but did not accomadate women. The social hierarchy between men and women in Moby Dick is the polar opposite of the one in the The Great Gatsby. Though the men are unable to see them, the phates are in control of the environment and they are able to see the greater meaning in the actions of the men as they crew draws farther away from their own humanity. The other women in the play are the wives of the sailors, and they demonstrate a competence and responsibility that the men are seeking to escape from by sailing. Women are the greatest force in the world of Moby Dick, rather than in Gatsby where women allow men to drive them forward.
In The Great Gatsby, the women of the novel- Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan- only seek materialistic wealth like their male counterparts to gain arbitrary power. Gatsby even mentions that Daisy's voice "is full of money...high in a white palace the king's daughter, the golden girl" (Fitzgerald 120). As seen in Chapter 7, Jay Gatsby's decisions are heavily influenced by Daisy. However, after throwing parties and covering for Myrtle's death for Daisy, she chose to stay with her husband Tom to maintain her status as the model couple with a perfect life. Without this image, Daisy would have no place in the world, while Tom's reputation would almost go untarnished. Although Daisy knows about Tom's mistress, she never confronted him on the subject because she did not want to lose her power. Myrtle also aspires to be of higher status. During this time, the definition of a man was to be wealthy and powerful. Myrtle's husband was neither of these, so she sought out Tom, a man who could give her the world. She uses Tom to experience the rich lifestyle. On the other hand, Jordan, who comes from the same high class level as Daisy, is resistant of the role of women during the 1920s. She is an athlete, a smoker, and meets with many men. She does not look for men to validate her actions, she uses men to validate herself. In the end, all of these women have an underlying angle for their personal gain.
ReplyDeleteLuis Almanza
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I like the use of incorporating and explaining clearly and concisely your definition of arbitrary power that both men and women seek in the novel. However I disagree that Daisy and Jordan seek a similar lust and want for a unattainable power as their male counterparts.Daisy never attempts to gain power over another through the novel, if anything Daisy strives for a power which enables her to define herself rather than Tom suppressing and defining her. Though Jordan however does seek for a power, Nick does not do a well enough to support that she strives and dreams for similar power as her male counterpart which would suit to her benefit
I like how you included "without this image, Daisy would have no place in the world, while Tom's reputation would almost go untarnished" because this is very very true. Even though women have this 'hidden power'upon the men in both stories, they are, in a way, trapped under the men's control. This sense of power that each character has is only possible with each other. In other words, the men gain their power from the women, but the women maintain their power by having a husband to keep their 'security' and 'safety.' Those are two things that stop Daisy from confronting Tom about Myrtle. It's quite fascinating.
DeleteLuis Almanza
ReplyDeleteAmerican Literature
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The men in The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald dream of wealth and riches, which subsequently sometimes are women. Women in the novel are revered as sometimes as a term of them being a sort of currency. That being said the only place for the women in The Great Gatsby are to be represented by as currency and wealth not as a person who dreams them. That through the novel they are seen as nothing more than obedient, with a few exceptions of course. This being reflective to Moby Dick, the role of women are only of a lust and are never of a protruding character or seen as anything other than just a object. This is shown by the very small role that women were shown and seen throughout the play. When compared to the very little importance that women had in The Great Gatsby when pertained to character importance and development through the both stories the role women are placed into are almost hand and hand.
I completely agree Luis, the women are merely symbols of masculinity for the men, who have goals of gaining wealth for the most part. You also mentioned that they are seen as nothing more than obedient, with a few exceptions of course, are you referring to Jordan? Being that she, out of the three women, is the most defiant in possessing masculine qualities. I also like your connection to Moby Dick, but I do think there is more to the Fates and the women in the Great Gatsby than playing an object of lust.
DeleteI do not agree that women "have very little importance". In both Gatsby and Moby Dick women are the driving force behind the men's decisions. While I agree that they are objectified to assert the men's masculinity, the women are the ones that question their masculinity in the first place which then leads to the men having to prove themselves. Even if they're portrayed to play small roles, they're still part of the bigger picture and that is that the women were motives for the men.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby the men presented by Fitzgerald acquire money to maintain their wives and masculinity. Gatsby got wealthy for Daisy, Tom works to maintain Daisy and Wilson works to maintain Myrtl. The men in the novel are striving for the American Dream but the women are consistent with the men's fantasies. All the women are very superficial and only care about being wealthy. Yet even though the women are consistent with the fantasy they have a very important role in the fantasy. The women control the men just like the fates controlled the sailors. The women have the force to influence the men's decisions in a good or bad way. Even though the men think they are dominant over the women, they don't realize the women's dreams influence their dreams.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree and I like how you ended it. The men do not even realize that the women have their own dreams and that it affects them. They seem very oblivious.
DeleteI agree, Gatsby creates his dream based on Daisy's attractions. Daisy was attracted to wealth and maintaining her social status so then Gatsby's dream was to attain wealth and power to be with Daisy. I don't think he felt dominant to Daisy, though. He gave the impression that he wasn't good enough for her until he had money.
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DeleteI absolutely agree with you Evelyn! The men do not recognize that women have a great impact on their lives. Gatsby, Nick and Jordan are blinded by the materialistic world and don’t realize that the women have great power over the men. Although they are very destructive, Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan all portray the sexual freedom enjoyed by women of the time.
DeleteHector Salazar: I agree with you here, the women in The Great Gatsby are a kind of trophy to the men, However, the fates, I believe are the same in this sense of objects. However, unlike the Great Gatsby, the fates have a bigger role to play out, they determine the men's well FATE. Because of the fates things happen to the men, they are present whenever something catalystic occurs. They have a role in the play, that without the fates the men would have no purpose.
ReplyDeleteThis is for Luis by the way
DeleteThe female characters in The Great Gatsby seek the same material wealth and power as their male counterparts, however the women attempt to absorb this wealth and power rather than acquiring it themselves. Myrtle uses her affair with Tom to metaphorically lift herself out of the poorer aspect of New York and into the riches and power of the East Egg. Contrastingly, Tom uses the affair for self-gain and to assert his male dominance. Similarly to Myrtle, Daisy gets caught up in an affair with Gatsby, but all the while she attempts to maintain her sense of power and wealth in New York. Gatsby is so in love with Daisy that he is oblivious to the fact that Daisy is a leech, feeding off of Gatsby's wealth and glory. Lastly, Jordan, who is exceptionally dishonest and self-centered, seeks status as well as independence and she is willing to gain these things by any means necessary. Earlier in the novel it is revealed that she cheated to win her first golf tournament and she continually bends the truth for self gain. Ultimately, the women in The Great Gatsby feed off of the dreams of the men in order to fulfill their own.
ReplyDeleteMiles I agree with your comment, I too believe that Myrtle uses the affair for economic gains, and I like the ideas about Daisy and Jordan as well. However, quotes would make your argument stronger.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby and the Moby Dick play, the females are in control of the males. The women disempower the men by manipulating them. In The Great Gatsby, Nick Carraway labels the men and women as morally rotten. However, Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan are further more morally corrupt because they use their partner to gain status/wealth. Gatsby became wealthy on his own in order to get Daisy to fall in love with him, but Daisy used Tom to acquire that wealth. Gatsby was persistent when he was trying to get Daisy back, but she did not pay attention to him. Daisy's selfishness reaches its potential when she does not attend Gatsby's funeral because Daisy was the one who killed Myrtle. The men try their best to satisfy their women but the women just take them for granted. Daisy embodies the American Dream because of her wealth, high social class, and extravagant lifestyle. The women/fates from the Moby Dick play embody the purpose for the men's' journey; therefore, that is why they lead the men to their death. The American Dream is similar to the purpose for the mens' journey because they are both successes that the characters from the stories are trying to reach. The American Dream wants to be reached by everybody in The Great Gatsby because it means wealth, and in the play the men want to go on the journey in order to kill Moby Dick. The women in both stories represent a more powerful characteristic than the men which is why they can manipulate them until the men reach the end of their life.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald mentions“the old island here that flowered once for Dutch sailors’ eyes—a fresh, green breast of the new world”(Fitzgerald 180) which illustrates the ambitions of men to start building their fortune from scratch. To the Dutch sailors, the land becomes their object of affection, promising much but delivers little to the men who seeks success. Similarly, Nick depicts Daisy as the object of affection to American men because of her high class background and “her voice...full of money” (Fitzgerald 120). Daisy has always been provided for and treated “like the king’s daughter, the golden girl...” (Fitzgerald 120). Her words of eloquence comes naturally, versus Gatsby, who’s speech is practiced. Daisy’s effortless and birth-attained status provides her with the security Gatsby and other working class men yearn for. Not only Daisy, but women in The Great Gatsby like Myrtle also stands as a sense of security for the dominant males in the novel. When Tom learns that Wilson was about to take Myrtle away, and Daisy’s cheating on him, he feels as if his masculinity was threatened. Therefore, he attacks Gatsby with accusations and when he felt that he had won Daisy over, he sends her home with Gatsby to show his dominance over their relationship. When Daisy was wavering, Gatsby also felt a sense of panic and goes as far as to deceit himself that his dream is still alive, rather than accepting the fact that it’s dead. This relates to the women who takes on the role of the seducing ocean in Moby Dick. The men aboard the Pequod are men who purposeless beings searching for a sense of security. As Ishmael introduced in the beginning, he was an outcast and therefore wishes to find a purpose in the vast oceans. With the women playing the ocean, it is seen how they’re able to seduce the men and lure them with their feminity.
ReplyDeleteI like the connection you made with the women being a type of security for the men in both The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick. I agree with your statement that the men seek purpose through the women in the story. If you were to take out the women from either story, the men would be confused and there would be no real story to tell. When you look at it in that point of view, the woman are the environment that the men live in and use to guide themselves.
DeleteI agree with you lina! Men do seek purpose through the women in both The Great Gatsby and in Moby Dick. You analyzed both very well however; I would analyze how women influence the men on the Pequod just a little bit more; make that connection I know you can!
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald and the Northwestern production of Moby Dick the men's masculinity and power derives from the women. The women in The Great Gatsby-Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan- have come to a point where they can essentially operate the men and manipulate their actions. F. Scott Fitzgerald continuously verifies Gatsby, Tom and Nick's power throughout the novel. However, Fitzgerald fails to recognize how the influence behind their power is the women. Daisy practically has Gatsby on her leash, he will do or say what he needs to satisfy her. He has openly confessed her love to him and proven that he will go above and beyond to win her love as well. Myrtle has allowed Tom to establish himself as the power of the relationship when in reality she holds sway over him. She is of the lower class, and her and Tom both know that she could gain wealth through Tom. Yet, since Tom is losing Daisy to Gatsby, his masculinity is only verified by Myrtle's influence on him. When she passes, he realizes the purpose she gave him and without her, he was striped of his power. In Moby Dick, the fates are the desire sought by every man aboard the Pequod. They have the attention of the men and can lead them anywhere, in this case, leading them to their death. For the production as a whole, the women actors were also directing the stage and creating the scenes. This creates the idea of the men's environment being shaped by the women. The only way for these men on board to show their power is to get the fates. Like Tom, their importance relies on the women in the story. The women in both The Great Gatsby and the production of Moby Dick build the men's power and purpose to break it down and use it for their own selfish gain.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your analyzing of of female characters in both the play and in the book. However I would add more and elaborate on the meaning of the Pequod. I absolutely totally completely one hundred percent agree with your argument.
Delete-Brennan
The Great Gatsby correlates with Moby Dick in that the women play a role to manipulate the dreams and fantasies of men in order to benefit them socially and economically. Tom attempts to control Daisy, but with Daisy knowing about the affair she is in actual control. Since Daisy is already wealthy, she does not need an economic gain but has a social component with her control. If everybody were to know about the affair, Tom would be destroyed as far as his social status and Daisy uses this control against Tom so she can manipulate his actions to her likings; and does the same thing to Gatsby. Since Gatsby is in love with Daisy, Daisy uses this to manipulate Gatsby as she was talking with him and it was successful as her “voice was playing murmurous tricks in her throat” (Fitzgerald 104) which seduced and manipulated Gatsby. On the other hand, Tom’s mistress Myrtle has an economic component to her intentions of manipulating Tom. Myrtle can get money and other items from Tom as the affair places her in control of Tom. Since Tom is blinded by his goal for success, he does not see and has no problem of attending to the wills of Myrtle and Daisy. In conjunction, the men in Moby Dick are blinded by their goal of success of killing Moby Dick that they are being manipulated by the women throughout the story to women’s’ benefits. Overall, women want to achieve to power as men do and can do so by manipulating the thoughts of men whether they have leverage against them or not.
ReplyDeleteGreat ideas Malakye. I agree with the point you made that the women both in Moby Dick and The Great Gatsby play a role to benefit themselves. I also agree with the statement in which you say men want to achieve to power as men do and can do so by manipulating the thoughts of men. Great work.
DeleteFor the women in The Great Gatsby, the Women dream of achieving material wealth. All of them, except perhaps Jordan show that they are with men because of their money. Their places do not matter to them as long as they have economic stability and “freedom” in the sense that they can get whatever material things they desire. The women are objects to the men that demonstrate their wealth, a sort of trophy to bring with them to show off at parties and in societies. These women trophies define the masculinity of the man they are with. For Tom he is with Daisy but with Myrtle also, however Daisy is controlled by Tom and Tom has control over Myrtle as well, while her husband Wilson has no control. The women’s places are merely additions to the men, in the sense that they give the men purpose. Without the women they perhaps would have no way to show their status and masculinity as they define it to themselves through their materials and their women. The women in the play also make the men who they are, without the fates there would be no purpose for the men. The fates give the men their identities as well as the women in The Great Gatsby to their husbands.
ReplyDeleteHow would the men have no purpose if it was not for the fates? How do the fates give the men their identities? You just quicky state this in the end of your response without any explanation.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick, the men are casted as dominant powerful figures, yet the women reflect this secret force among the men to control them and still hold their sense of power and social status. In The Great Gatsby, Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan’s dreams are to become high on their social conventions of their class, or maintain their place by the use of men and become wealthy. Unknowingly the men do not realize that they are being manipulated. Gatsby, Tom, and Nick are very successful men, but their power is gained by the power the women hand to them. Daisy “gave the rooms/places she is in an air of breathless intensity” (Fitzgerald 148). She allured Gatsby and basically made him do what she wanted to get her to love him, but she mainly just wanted to maintain her place in east egg. Although Myrtle was just Tom’s mistress, she uses Tom to get closer to east egg, thus closer to wealth. Tom’s power of letting Myrtle become higher on the social status gives Myrtle power without him knowing. Meanwhile Nick’s lust for Jordan just makes him do things he would never do; thereby giving Jordan power. The women could make the men do anything even if it did not benefit them; all they cared for is wealth and power. Similarly to Moby Dick, the women acted as natural forces and fates of the men. They could make the men do what they wanted because the men thought they would benefit from it. Therefore, In the Great Gatsby and Moby Dick the women are the fates/forces that enforce men’s’ destinies. Without women’s fantasies, the men would not have their own fantasies; they are strictly made from the women’s.
ReplyDeleteMelanie,
DeleteI agree with this argument. I liked the fact that you brought up the women's fantasies and how the men would not have any if the women didn't have fantasies in the first place. I also agree that the men are constantly being influenced by the women- even if they do not realize it. Good job!
I definitely agree with your argument. I liked how you brought up the fact that the women, despite the societal pressures to remain docile and pathetic, find ways to get what they want. I also agree that they did this through influencing the men (after all, getting wealth and power was much easier for them, so it would be a pretty smart move). Good job.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, Gatsby gives meaning to Daisy. Gatsby makes Daisy the object of his dream. Gatsby wanted to attain wealth in order to be with Daisy, and the wealth she symbolized. He made her something of value instead of a superficial woman who has no control over her own life. Nick contemplates “what a grotesque thing a rose is” (Fitzgerald 161). Without Gatsby giving Daisy beauty, she would be just another superficial woman. His fantasy was fueled by a woman but Daisy ultimately stands as only an object. Fitzgerald doesn’t mention Daisy’s dream. She was merely a woman who wanted wealth and a high social status. The role of women is Moby Dick was something of purpose. The women played the whales. The men had hunted the whales in order to get the oils they needed. Similar to Gatsby wanting Daisy for the wealth she symbolized. The women played a necessity in Moby Dick, not an accessory like in The Great Gatsby. Moby Dick, played by a women, was the doom of the men. Such as Daisy ended up being the doom for Gatsby. Gatsby was killed because he took the fall of the murder Daisy committed. In Moby Dick, women were overpowering men while in The Great Gatsby, the women were still being a prize to be won.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, the women of the story directly influence the men, using tools like their physical appearance and sexual appeal to obtain what they desire. While the story’s main focus is on the dreams of the male characters, those of the female are reflected in the male’s actions. Take Gatsby for example, he lives his entire life for Daisy, warping his entire being to suit her. Myrtle’s relationship with Tom is entirely based on her desire to gain wealth and power and ends up having huge repercussions once Myrtle dies (Tom’s life begins to fall apart, and her death sets off the chain of events leading to the murder of Gatsby.) Nick’s obsession with Jordan makes him drink and do things completely out of character. Similarly, in the production of Moby Dick, the Fates/Stage Managers are in complete control of the sailors and their actions, stringing them along to their deaths. Though the dreams of women are trivialized by commonplace society, they have huge influence over the lives of men, often without their even knowing.
ReplyDeleteKelly Acevedo
DeletePeriod 05
I agree with you Irina on how the men do not realize that the women are actually responsible for their life changing. They are very determined in achieving their desires, that they would do anything to earn it. I also agree with you on how the women lead the men to do things they wouldn't normally do.
I totally agree with you that women have an impact on the men's dreams. The men strive for power and control but are manipulated by the women therefore affecting the outcome of their dream. I really liked how you incorporated that the fates as well as the women in The Great Gatsby are behind the decisions and actions of the men.
DeleteIn both the Great Gatsby and the play Moby Dick, women influence the men's decisions. In the play, the women are "fates" which portray the role of women in society at the time. Moby Dick was written during the pre-civil war era therefore, all the men were going off to war and the women were left to run the towns. The fates in the play are the driving factor towards running the play and the men's ultimate fate, hence the name fates. When men drowned or were killed by the sea, the fates represented the lure of the ocean and the ultimate killing of the men by the sea. In the Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald creates and shapes Gatsby's character to seem as though he is obsessed with Daisy and will do anything in his willpower for her, thus making Daisy the driving force behind Gatsby's decisions. In the end, Daisy's hit and run with Myrtle ends in Gatsby's death. Myrtle also influences Tom by making him feel the need to assert his masculinity over her while still carrying along the affair. Through Myrtle's death, Tom decides to uphold his masculinity and belittle Gatsby therefore, making Myrtle Tom's driving force in his decisions. Even the narrator, Nick Carraway, is influenced by Jordan Baker to do things he never would of done such as excessive drinking which then leads to his alcoholism.Although the women in both stories find a sense of security in the men, they are the ones in power. In both the Great Gatsby and Moby Dick, women are
ReplyDeletethe motives towards the men's dreams and hopes. Tom wanted his masculinity and power proven over the women in his life, Gatsby wanted to get the girl of his dreams, and in Moby Dick the fates lure the men into the ocean to fulfill their goal of catching the whale, Moby Dick; all of these are subsequently fulfilled by the women.
Victor Iturralde
ReplyDeleteMr. Saldivar
American Lit 8th
5.3.14
In The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, women manipulate men by their use of attention and love; they make the men feel complete, but only do so in order to attain their own dreams and longings. Although both Tom and Daisy know of each other’s affairs, they both do not leave each other. Tom values his status and reputation too much because he feels he is living his dream, and even though he knows his dream is now corrupt, he refuses to let go of his ideal life, even at the sight of something as scandalous as Daisy cheating on him. Daisy recognizes this weakness in Tom and refuses to leave him as well, not for Tom’s good or for the worry of upsetting him, but rather for her own good, as she knows that Tom is of higher wealth and status than Gatsby; Tom is her only hope of achieving her dreams of a luxurious life, even if the relationship tainted in scandal and lies. They both become too blinded by their own dream to recognize the moral decay of themselves and each other major character in the story. Gatsby is desperate to acquire Daisy, as he sees her as the missing piece to his dream; without her he feels incomplete and as worthless, even though he lives an extravagant lifestyle that is portrayed in the early chapters, before he is well introduced. Gatsby originally falls in love with Daisy's aura of wealth and privilege, her riches, and her lack of worry. To Gatsby, Daisy symbolizes wealth, status, and just becomes another part of his fantasy. Daisy’s dream only involves and the wealth power and status of herself, similar to the dream of the men throughout the story. Daisy disregards Gatsby, and emotional tension between the two, as she without too much though it able to settle for Tom over Gatsby, as Tom has more wealth and status. The men in the story such as Tom strive to have wealth and power, as the women try to have power over those men with the power. Daisy is similar to the fates in the Moby Dick play presented at Northwestern University, in the sense that they both attracted and manipulated the men they encountered, and they both lead the men to their downfall.
Good analysis Vic. I agree that the women in the novel manipulate the men and create a false persona for their own personal gain.
DeleteI agree, Daisy's dream are intertwined with the men's dream. I liked the connection between Daisy and the Fates and how they were both able to manipulate the men and lead them into their downfall. The women in both Moby Dick and The Great Gatsby are shown to have more power over the men in contrast to how women were portrayed during the times that the stories were both written.
DeleteIn the Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald the woman in the novel are the motivation to men. The men in the novel are manipulated by the women to the point in which they base all their decisions on how to satisfy and gain control of the women. The woman then take advantage and use the mens emotions to get their own personal gains. Daisy is the motivation for Gatsby in the novel." Gatsby bought that house so that Daisy would be just across the bay."(Fitzgerald 78) This shows that Gatsby’s main goal throughout the whole novel is to gain the love of Daisy. Daisy however is interested in money and status, and therefore will not leave Tom. After Gatsby takes the blame from Daisy for the car crash, Daisy stays with Tom fearing that if she leaves him her reputation and status will be ruined. Myrtle (thot), like Daisy, is also interested in status and wealth, except she is on the lower class side of the relationship rather than on the upper class. In order to gain these goals Myrtle gets into an affair with Tom (Mr. Steal Yo girl). After Myrtles death Tom’s life starts to fall apart, showing how Tom was manipulated by Myrtle into relying on her love to keep life moving on smoothly. Daisy and Myrtle are very similar to the fates from Moby Dick, who were also played as women. The fates attracted the men eventually leading to the men’s downfall, similar to how Daisy and Myrtle led on Gatsby and Tom eventually leading to both of their downfalls.
ReplyDeleteJason,
DeleteI agree with most of your response, and really like the use of context through the quote, it is a nice addition and does a good job of blending right in with the flow of the response. I would have liked to see you expand more on how Daisy and Myrtle led to Tom's downfall in specific, as his downfall is not as explicitly stated or mentioned as Gatsby's. I don't think that Tom's life "starts to fall apart" with the death of Myrtle, but her death is rather a reassurance or the final blow in his downfall, as his relationship is corrupted since the first scenes of the book and throughout.
Jason, I agree with your response and I agree that the women are the men's motivation throughout the story. I also liked your use of that quote since it helped with the context of your response and it fit perfectly since you were trying to show how the women affect the men's choices.
DeleteKelly Acevedo
ReplyDeleteMr. Saldivar
American Lit, Pd. 05
In F. Scott Fitzgerald's; The Great Gatsby, the women throughout the novel seem to be in control of both their husbands and lovers because of their desire for wealth and place in society. Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan are all very manipulative in order to achieve the high status that they yearn for. They use the men as placeholders for this status while men use the women as their form of wealth(material wealth) and sense of power and masculinity. After Gatsby left for the war, Daisy married Tom only because he would be the only one available to give her that status. When Gatsby starts to meet up with her again, Daisy does not necessarily love him, but has an affair with him because she knows that he got wealthy in order to maintain and win back "her love". Myrtle has an affair with Tom to reach the higher upper class status that she cannot receive from Wilson, a middle class man who tries to give her that life by working, unlike Tom and Gatsby. However, Jordan Baker uses men to maintain the independence she has by having many men in her life. As an athlete, she wants to let it be known that she is a fully capable woman who does not need a husband to maintain her. The fantasies of both the men and women are similar because they both feed off of each other to achieve their dreams and desires. For example, Tom and Daisy are fully aware that they each have lovers, but still need each other. Daisy needs Tom to keep the model wife status and wealth, Tom needs Daisy to have a sense of masculinity because he has a woman.
Adriana Amador
ReplyDeleteAmerican Lit Period 5
In The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, Daisy, Jordan and Myrtle represent the materialistic values that many women had, which stemmed from the need for security. This is seen through Daisy when she states, “I hope she’ll be a fool- that’s the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool” (Fitzgerald 17). This shows that many women felt the need to find any sense of security strictly through the man they chose. Not only do the women have materialistic views, but their impact on the mens’ fantasies are more than what is first implied. Nick briefly mentions, “She [Jordan Baker] was incurably dishonest. She wasn’t able to endure being at a disadvantage…It made no difference to me. Dishonesty in a woman is a thing you never blame deeply- I was casually sorry, and then I forgot “ (Fitzgerald 58). The way that Nick dismissed the thought of Jordan Baker lying represents the way all of the men in the novel overlook the fact that the women are in control; their manipulation goes unnoticed, allowing the men to further believe they are the ones with the power. For the men, they believe that thriving is the most important task in the “urban jungle” while the womens’ sole focus is surviving.
In The Great Gatsby, Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan all seek the same materialistic wealth as the men. Throughout the story we see the big role that women play on the men, we some how Tom uses his affair with Myrtle to assert his masculinity and we also see how Daisy affects Gatsby's choices. But, we also get to see how the women seek their materialistic wealth through the men. Myrtle uses her affair with Tom to escape the low class. Daisy uses Gatsby and Tom for their wealth and glory but stays with Tom because of his status quo. Finally through Jordan we see that the women are similar to the men through the fact that they are corrupt and will do anything to read their material wealth, we find this out when we find out that Jordan cheated in her golf tournament.
ReplyDeleteIn the Great Gatsby and the play of Moby Dick, all characters, male and female, strive to gain power in one way or another, but at the expense of the opposite gender. For the men, they wish to achieve power but it can only be achieved through the masculinity that comes from having dominance over a woman. Meanwhile, the women, in both the Great Gatsby and Moby Dick, manipulate the men in hopes of personal gain in wealth, higher status, and power/control. With Daisy, her dream belonged in the "wholesome bulkiness about a person and his position" (Fitzgerald 153). This suggests Daisy's wanting for power as well as her ability to have it at the expense of a man. This is similar to the Fates ability (while playing the whale Moby Dick) to easily take away Ahab's masculinity in biting off his leg. On the other hand, however, the women in The Great Gatsby do not necessarily follow up with their manipulation in gaining power over men. For example, Myrtle, within her marriage with George, attempts to gain power through her relationship with Tom, in doing so, she merely ends up as an object of lust for Tom. In comparison to Moby Dick, the crew who has caught a big chunk of whale meat, strips it down to the bone, leaving the helpless Fate lying on the deck. In both scenarios, the women play a role in determining the future of the men but at different levels. They can either be in control over the men, or submerged by the dominance of the men.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, the males throughout the story have fantasies of power and control which the women represent. However, women like Daisy, Myrtle and Jordan control these fantasies and use the men to satisfy their own fantasies, which are climbing the social ladder and obtaining material wealth. In the relationship between Myrtle and Tom and Tom and Daisy, Tom seems top dog since he has two women which represents power but realistically both of the women are using Tom. Both Daisy and Myrtle use Tom for his “status”, this goes unnoticed which makes the manipulation and control of the women to the men overlooked. Similarly, Jordan uses Nick in order to maintain independence and satisfy her needs. These women just like the fates lure and manipulate the men. Without these women, men are nothing therefore women take advantage of that. Men are seen as powerful and of authority but the only reason men are viewed as almighty is because there is a women by their side, the women are aware of this ,which is why they are able to maneuver the men in their own benefit.
ReplyDeleteThroughout The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick, each gender plays a role. The men have this sense of empowerment over others and the women are more of a hidden force that has this sense of power over the men. The men are ignorant about the fact that they receive their power through the women. In The Great Gatsby, Myrtle, Jordan, and Daisy have the desire to maintain their power under the men. They want to keep the safety and security the men provide them. According to Wilson, he wants to move from where he is currently living because he has “been here too long. [He] want[s] to get away. [His] wife and [him] want to go West” (Fitzgerald 123). Wilson goes to Tom speaking about the want to move as if it is his choice to move. As if he has the authority to decide to move. However, Tom says,”Your wife does” and Wilson responds, “She’s been talking about it for years...And now she’s going whether she wants to or not. [He’s] going to get her away” (Fitzgerald 123). Myrtle has complete control over Wilson even though he does not realize it. By buying the car, he thinks he is making the choice of moving but in reality it is Myrtle. She claims she is leaving “whether or not she wants to” shows how she is the one making the choice. She sticks to Wilson as a tool of security and safety. Without a man, she is useless and will have no way of rising up to maintain her the power she has. The women have the power to do what they want whether or not it affects them. They earned for power and wealth. In comparison, Moby Dick had women who were hidden force that lead men to do what they wanted them to do making the men believe it would be useful. The fantasies of the women in each story influence the men;s fantasies showing the women hold this sense of power that is much greater than the men.
ReplyDeleteI really like where you were going with the Wilson and Myrtle idea, but it became a weaker argument towards the end with the "whether or not she wants to" because that would imply it's actually not her choice anymore. Also, I do not understand "the women have the power to do what they want whether or not it affects them". The issue is that the women do not feel the sense of power even though the men unconsciously grant it to them. It is also not the type of power that gives them much control over the situation, but is really using themselves as a tool, or to the men a valuable object.
DeleteIn both The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick, the female characters control the men and determine their fate. In The Great Gatsby, Daisy was able to make Gatsby feel incompetent for not having her. The fact that Daisy marries Tom over Gatsby shows the control that Daisy has over Gatsby. Similarly in Moby Dick, the women were able to lure the men into the water and their mere appearances had large affects on the men. They felt driven to try to destroy the Fates. Without the women in both The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick, the men in the stories would not be significant and would not have a purpose. The women give the men a purpose throughout both stories.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, that the women are the forces behind what the men desire. It is ironic that the women in The Great Gatsby were perceived as the weaker gender, yet they were the manipulators of everything that "being a man" stood for in Gatsby and Tom. I think that Daisy had control over Gatsby from her marraige with Tom, because this made Gatsby work so hard to out-do Tom.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn “The Great Gatsby” by F. Scott Fitzgerald and the story of Moby Dick (Movie), even though men’s dreams are the main focus and the only ones that are discussed in the book the dreams they have are controlled by the women of the story who they do everything for to please. This is show in the Great Gatsby because both Myrtle and Daisy as they keep Tom from reaching his idea of perfection because he feels the perfect world is one he can control with his wealth thus proving his “manhood”. But when he tries to control Daisy she does not listen and follows her own rules thus stopping Tom from reaching his ideal perfect world. Myrtle continues to destroy Tom’s perfect world by not accepting him controlling her with his status and wealth instead she does what she wants in her search of her own social status with the rich. This can be also be shown with Nick and Gatsby in one case Nick tries to avoid problems of his own and just watches other around him from his own “perfect world but Jordan Baker disrupts that world by showing him the flaws of his world thus exposing him for the flaws that are actually their which he tried to hide. Finally for Gatsby he struggles to reach his perfect world of having Daisy be his but her idea of perfection is money and power which she sees with Tom so she leaves Gatsby with his world aka Daisy now destroyed because of her own dreams. So through Daisies dream of finding love through wealth, Myrtle’s dream for higher social status, and Jordan’s dream of breaking free of a perfect world of men they are actually the ones controlling the story through the men’s fantasies that are the actual ones told. This leads over to Moby Dick because the women as well are able to control the men’s dream of catching the white whale thus ending their hope of a perfect world.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby, the men in the story seek to create an illusion of dominance on wealth and women, in order to flaunt their success. For the male characters, money represents desired power. Gatsby proves this through his lifelong search to be rid of his poor farming life, and Tom shows it through the large ego he carries due to his wealth. When Gatsby agrees with what Nick says of Daisy’s voice, “It was full of money—that was the inexhaustible charm that rose and fell in it…” (Fitzgerald 120), Fitzgerald shows that women also embody power for the male characters. This allows the female characters to manipulate the mens’ perceived success, as they are one of the driving forces of it. Nick says that “Tom was feeling the hot whips of panic” (Fitzgerald 125), because his women Myrtle and Daisy were turning away from him.
ReplyDeleteThe women in the novel match the mens’ aspirations for dominance, but don’t use it to create an image of success. When Nick describes Jordan as avoiding “clever, shrewd men… [because] She wasn’t able to endure being at a disadvantage…” (Fitzgerald 58), he shows that she craves an upper hand in relationships. She wants to be able to lie without consequences. Myrtle also shows her desire for power, when she puts herself in a relationship with Tom in exchange for material items that she can’t afford. The women crave dominance solely for themselves, in contrast to the mens’ desire to show it off.
In the Great Gatsby, the women play a crucial role in the men's lives by directly influencing their decisions and causing them to create these false fantasies about themselves. The men in the novel create a false sense of power and authority when it comes to being with women: "He might have despised himself, for he had certainly taken her under false pretenses... he had deliberately given Daisy a sense of security...[showing] that he was fully able to take care of her" (Fitzgerald 149). The men force themselves to believe that they have the power to affect how the women act, but it is the exact opposite that is happening. The women clearly have the most influential part of the men's decision making. Everything Gatsby does is for Daisy, and the same goes for Nick with Jordan. The same circumstances can be observed in Moby Dick, where the women represent the fates, which directly influence the men's thoughts and actions. Both The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick highlight the importance of women's roles on the influence they have over the men's fantasies. This goes to prove that women have more power- overall- than the men's false fantasies.
ReplyDeleteIn F. Scott Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby and the play Moby Dick, women represent what drives the men’s ambitions. In The Great Gatsby, Gatsby strives to be with Daisy, who symbolizes wealth, as “her voice is full of money” (Fitzgerald 120). Daisy is the reason the Gatsby moves to West Egg, as well as the reason he throws his extravagant parties. However, Daisy also causes Gatsby’s death, showing how his selfish dreams of material wealth led to his downfall. Similarly, in Moby Dick, the Fates controlled the destinies of the sailors, luring the men to their deaths. The Fates also played the role of the whale, which was the sailors’ ultimate target. The sailors wanted revenge on the whale in return of the lives it took and Ahab’s leg. Their search for the whale causes the ship to sink, and the consequences of their selfish need for revenge are shown. The women in both works represent the consequences of the men’s self-interested dreams.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald the women dream of material wealth. The women chose to be with men based on the amount of money they have. The men use women as a sign of their wealth. The women are symbols of masculinity for the men and define who the men are. The women reflect who the men are but are only seen as objects by the men. This is reflected in Moby Dick where the women also represent the goals of the men.
ReplyDeleteAlex- I agree that the women desire material wealth. However, I also think they are more than just objects used to flaunt wealth. Maybe you could expand more on how they had an effect on the men and their wealth. Also, you could maybe expand more on the Fates and why they represented the goals of the men.
DeleteThe Great Gatsby by F.Scott Fitzgerald represents the supposed dominance of the male race during the time period. However, the men in the novel do not take into account the true power the women held over the men. Nick Carroway wrapped up the book by saying, "The old island here that flowered once for Dutch sailors’ eyes—a fresh, green breast of the new world" (180), with this paragraph visualizing the American Dream. However, Gatsby's American Dream was Daisy, therefore giving Daisy more unharnessed control over Gatsby. This power shift is atypical from the usual domestic relationship during that time. We also see in the production of Moby Dick that the women in the story are not given typical roles. As the Fates, they are the deciding factors of the men's dreams, giving them the power to wreak havoc. The Fates more violent role lets them hinder with Ahab's fantasy of catching Moby Dick, with the best example being when his leg is taken off. The women's underlying power in The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick can easily be looked over, however the women changed the paths of the leading men and were able to be the force behind the outcome of the men's fantasies.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that "men in the novel do not take into account the true power the women held over the men." This is easily shown in Moby Dick and how the men's lives are in the hands of the women, the Fates. I think you did a really great job in interpreting the American Dream in The Great Gatsby and connecting it very well among your other points.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, the men and women depend on each other to fulfill both of their dreams and fantasies. A good example of this is shown by Tom and Daisy Buchanan. Women give men a sense of power and since Tom has Daisy, someone who is desirable by many, he has a great sense of power and is put above everyone else. Daisy’s dream is to be wealthy and to have a powerful husband as so many American’s dream of. By them both being there for each other, they are both able to fulfill their dreams of becoming the wealthy and powerful couple that everybody knows. The failure of this would be Gatsby. At the end of the story, Gatsby has given up, “Perhaps he no longer cared. If that was true he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream” (Fitzgerald 161). Gatsby had the wealth and everything, but he was missing the most important thing that he never was able to grasp, the girl of his dreams. Not having the woman to empower him resulted in failure. Another example of a failure is in Moby Dick. The women of the story, known as The Fates, dictate the lives of the men that go searching for revenge on Moby Dick. In the end, the men all die because they simply took too long to kill the whale, just as Gatsby took too long to fulfill his dream. This once again shows the result of women fulfilling their dreams while also influencing the men into carry out their dreams.
ReplyDeleteCarolina Vallin
ReplyDeleteAhab's ultimate goal was to conquer Moby Dick, a whake played by the women in the play. In a similar fashion, Gatsby's dream revolved around ontaining the aloof Daisy who easily "vanished into her rich house, into her rich, full life, leaving Gatsby- nothing" (Fitzgerald 149). However, in Moby Dick, it is the women, the all powerful fates, who decide whether or not Ahab can fullfill the fantasy in his heart as he told Starbuck. In The Great Gatsby, Daisy decides that she wants "her life shaped now, immediatley," (151), whether it be for money, love, or status does not matter. In deciding this, Daisy takes away Gatsby's opportunity of fullfilling and validating his dreams of becoming the husband of the unattainable "nice", rich girl. This gives the women in Ahab's and Gatsby's lives the role of catalysts who decides if the men's fantasies and dreams can come true.
Awesome response! I really like your idea of how the men's dreams are limited by the decisions of feminine forces, such as the idea of fate in Moby Dick. This viewpoint is especially interesting when you contrast it with the actual amount of decision-making and power allotted to women both within The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick. Male dominance is a complete illusion, under the control of women.
DeleteThroughout the Great Gatsby, Gatsby is constantly influenced by his obsessive love of Daisy. Gatsby is the perfect example of men and their actions and dreams being driven by women. For example, Gatsby throws these extravagant parties to attract Daisy because Gatsby was “poor and [Daisy] was tired of waiting” (Fitzgerald 130) and when Daisy doesn’t like the crowd that Gatsby hangs out with he stops hanging out with them; showing how Daisy is the underlying cause for Gatsby’s actions throughout the novel. The same situation goes for Tom and his obsession with Myrtle and how myrtle on one occasion drove Tom to striking her by using Daisy and whether “Mrs.Wilson had any right to mention Daisy’s name” (Fitzgerald 37). There is also Nick’s obsession with Jordan. All three of these men’s motives were all three women. In Moby Dick the underlying causes for actions of men were the fates that were represented as women. Though there was a male domination in the production and novel there is still a feminine influence that is essential to the men’s dreams and it also gives women a sense of controlling power in charge of everything men do and dream.
ReplyDeleteSarah, I agree. I think it's interesting how men in these stories are so consumed with showing how masculine they are when at the same time everything they do is to gain the attention of a woman.
DeleteIn The Great Gatsby, the men desire wealth in some form whether it be in love, money, or excitement and the consequences of the desires prove more impactful than the goal perceived to be reached. Gatsby began working at a young age in order to give Daisy what he thought she deserved which was a successful man. However his efforts fell short of fruitful because Tom had married her with an unspoken promise of security. Tom and Gatsby want Daisy, Tom and Wilson want Myrtle and no one in particular mentions a yearning for Jordan, whom juxtaposes Daisy and Myrtle with her independence and self-fulfilling way of life.
ReplyDeleteIn Moby Dick, Ishmael, similar to Nick in The Great Gatsby tells the story of a great whale hunt which he also experienced, though he does so with far less bias. A major difference between the two stories is that in The Great Gatsby, the desires of men lead to turmoil and unsolved problems whereas the desires of the whalers in Moby Dick lead to a deep connection among the men, even though they do all die.
The greatest desires of the men in both The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick were for womanly creatures, illusions or women themselves, which empowers them yet simultaneously makes them hopeless property of the "lost" men.
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ReplyDeleteBoth the men and the women in The Great Gatsby fantasize about status, wealth, and power. Because of the patriarchal society these characters live in, the men were able to attain this wealth and power while the women were accessories to this fantasy. The only way for a woman in this text to live this fantasy was to get it through a man. Daisy attained her wealth through Tom. Myrtle, also wanting wealth and power, got it from being Tom’s mistress. Jordan, Nick’s girlfriend, attains her status through dating Nick- all the women care about is material wealth at all costs. While the only way for a woman to reach this dream is through a man, the only man whose dream revolved around a woman was Gatsby. Gatsby’s fantasy was reliving his past with Daisy. Gatsby becomes obsessed with the past and in the process of trying to recreate it, he loses himself. Similarly, in Moby Dick Captain Ahab loses himself to his obsession with killing Moby Dick. Gatsby's obsession with Daisy also leads to his death, like how Ahab is led to his death by the Fates in Moby Dick. While the women need the men to make their fantasies of status, wealth, and power a reality, the women also influence how successful the men are at reaching their dreams.
ReplyDeleteIn the "Great Gatsby" by F. Scott Fitzgerald, women assume a role of subtle submissiveness, attached to the whims of the dominant men in their lives. Where men such as Gatsby and Tom dream of wealth, power, and perfection, women are expected to become the support structures and means for these dreams. Tom's desire to assert dominance rest on Myrtle and Daisy, whose submissiveness to Tom's decisions allows Tom to feel a level of control over his environment. Gatsby's entire vision of a perfect, youthful romance hangs on Daisy's actions and behaviors, which are constantly taken into account in every action or purchase Gatsby makes. Women form the bedrock of the dreams of men, but their own dreams are limited when they "tumble short...of the colossal vitality of [the men's] illusions," (95). This "colossal vitality" of men's dreams forces women's dreams to be limited or altered on the basis of practicality. Myrtle and Daisy must plan their happiness around the wealth and status of husbands, and learn to limit disappointment by hoping for only the attainable things in life, such as Daisy's wish to be a "beautiful fool" and Myrtle's wish to gain financial stability through Tom to move out west. In this way, women add an element of reality to dreams, and as long as men's dreams stretch to the horizons, the dreams of women stretch only as far where the men's dreams begin.
ReplyDeleteBrennan Quinn
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby the women have fantasies and dreams somewhat consistent with the men. These dreams consist of material wealth, such as money and a lavish home, and also to have the opportunity to take as much leisure time as they want. For example, at the beginning of The Great Gatsby, it is revealed that Daisy and Gatsby were previously in love and they did not marry due to Gatsby's lack of wealth. This event revealed that the women in the novel are just as selfish and competitive as the men. The women strive for a man that has more wealth so they can get away with using vast amounts of leisure time and have very few responsibilities. These responsibilities consist of the hiring of many house servants and child carers so his wife Daisy can do what ever she pleases. Contradicting the women in The Great Gatsby, the Fates in Moby Dick have wise and reasonable characteristics. The Fates' goal is to warn the dangers of the sea ad give aid to Captain Ahab, while the wives in The Great Gatsby are selfish and useless.
For Daisy, Myrtle, and Jordan, the men in The Great Gatsby encompassed their own dreams. Each one of these women were in search of ultimate fulfillment in the financial security their husbands (or significant other) provided them. Though the women convey their conceited, material-loving characteristics, their men also play a key role to the corruption within the relationship. The men continue to play the egotistical characters throughout the novel. They do not admit to their mistakes as seen when Gatsby consistently insists on getting Daisy back but refuses to acknowledge that it was his own fault for losing Daisy to begin with. The women in the play are similar to the women in The Great Gatsby; they find a way to definitively destroy the sailors but at the same time, it is the men’s obsession over the whale that has allowed for the destruction to happen.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby and Moby Dick women are portrayed as manipulators that have a direct impact on the lives of the men. Gatsby was in love with the idea of Daisy: she made him feel young and made his manufactured “new money” identity authentic. When he went out to fight in the war, Daisy moved on because she wanted stability. She felt that, “she wanted her life shaped now immediately – and the decision must be made by some force – of love, of money if unquestionable practicality – that was close at hand” (Fitzgerald 151). Daisy left Gatsby for Tom Buchanan and caused Gatsby’s dream to die. Similarly, the fates in Moby Dick controlled the dreams of Ishmael and his crew. The men in both stories die as a result of being blinded by the women. In Moby Dick, there were countless moments in which the characters had to chance to save their lives, but the Fates manipulated them and lured them to the whale. Although males are dominant figures in both the novel and play, the females shape their identity and influence them greatly.
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